Smokejumper Speaks Up

Federal Smokejumper of Missoula Montana, Jesse Sankey realized jumping out of a perfectly good airplane into a wildland fire was far safer than speaking up for what he believed was right.

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Transcript

Abby: 0:01

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:09

[inaudible]

Abby: 0:09

Hello there. Thank you for taking some time out of your busy day to listen to Up in Flames. I'm your host, but more importantly, your advocate Abby Bolt. I created Up in Flames as an effort to stoke a few fires and ignite moral courage in the workplace. The majority of my experience is as a federal employee, so that's my base. However, this mission will stretch out far beyond the federal workforce and discuss challenges and solutions for local government, private sector and beyond. Up in flames is made possible by you. My patrons. If you aren't a patron yet, please take a moment and visit patreon.com/upinflamespodcast there you'll have access to behind the scenes footage, interesting background details and not shared on here and early access to episodes created solely for the patrons who support this effort. For less than a cup of coffee, you can be a member and support the Up in Flames tribe. My hope is to continue this mission with the support of people out there in the thick of it. Those who are looking back at their time in the workplace or new folks. Just coming up as contributing members of a professional community all hoping to make it a better place. Now, please don't forget to hit subscribe. I don't want you to miss out on the other episodes. Leave a review and be sure to share this podcast with anyone you feel could benefit from it. If you have feedback or info to share, please email me at abby@upinflames.org anytime. I would love to hear from you. Yeah, enjoy the episode.

Speaker 2: 1:43

[inaudible]

Jesse: 1:47

It's Jesse.

Abby: 1:47

Hey Jesse. It's happy. How's it going?

Jesse: 1:50

Good.

Abby: 1:51

You sound like you are now living what I have been living and it never ends. Even when you think you've finished it, like it was torn you. That's, I don't, I don't sugarcoat it. I let people know like it's not easy. It's taken up for yourself or putting your foot down.

Jesse: 2:04

That's right. I don't make it easy and I didn't realize actually I was a little bit naive on that.

Abby: 2:09

Even though I had some morning I was in the same boat. People had told me, you know, if you ever do file a complaint or if you ever speak up, it gonna wreck your career. It's gonna make things impossible. But I just, there came a point where I knew that I needed to do something about it no matter what.

Jesse: 2:22

In my case, I've been a temporary for 16 season.

Abby: 2:25

I want to capture this with you. And then, cause I think it's really important that people hear from people like you because it's not just about gals. It's clearly about about a lot of men out there. And it was actually a former smoke jumper who worked for me in prevention and the way he was being treated and needing to stick up for him. That's how I really started ticking management off early on. And when I needed to stand up for him is when they started to get more and more mad at me. And then I realized how serious it was. And it wasn't just about me and being a gallon fire, it was about a hostile work environment against anybody if they decided they were against. I want to make sure that you know, we capture some of this. I think the more that people hear about it, the better it is. Did you say you're cool with using your name or do you want to leave your name out of it?

Jesse: 3:05

You know, I personally have nothing to lose. That's why I don't, I don't mind. It's been very difficult to continue with my career because I've never, I always feel like I'm, anytime I say something to somebody, to anybody, I feel like I just screwed my case. But that's not what it is

Abby: 3:20

because that's what they want to feel.

Jesse: 3:22

Yeah, and I've come to that conclusion. It's hard to explain to people that are 40 years old. Then I have a BS in Force Management from University of Minnesota. Then I've been a school jumper for 11 years. A hot shot for five and a temporary the whole time and then I was teaching. I was teaching S three 91 once you kind of get into these positions, it's, it's, it's hard to explain to people why you are completely cut off. Now, this is about 16 seasons with a college degree before. And it's hard to explain that and[inaudible] no, nobody, nobody is even coming close to wanting to associate with me. Speak to me.

Abby: 3:59

You feel like you'd been completely ostracized? Probably. I totally hear what you're saying. Like it's impossible. Well, when it's, it's hard enough to explain to the outside outside, but even people in your own agency don't even understand what it means to be seasonal for all those years, you know. Or why you were or how that that works or where your protections could be different. You know, a lot of people don't in the agency don't get that

Jesse: 4:22

in. Let's see, the winter of 2015- 16 I was a part of the exploring leadership program for Region One. I was the only champ that's ever done it. You normally don't have Fire folks either. I just have to be at the university taking an S-class when these other core service folks were there. And so I had inquired about it and they told me what it was and they said, here, apply next year. And I did. And the inner working of management, you know, the first step in a three part leadership series. You've got exploring, you've got middle and you've yet senior. And the first one is free to all units, each unit out of their budget.

Abby: 4:58

So they were willing to invest in you.

Jesse: 5:00

Somebody was, it was free. I didn't ask permission. I did from a different supervisor after it was already all set up. I've already been accepted into it. And then I asked my base manager at that time if I could, and he took that. The subject matter that we decided our group of 10 decided to go with was culture for service culture. What are the issues surrounding it on what are the barriers to success? And over the wintertime all of us broke down. What is wrong or what barriers are there for the forest service and the culture? And we were looking at external and internal. So our relationship with partners with public, what are the barriers there? How do they perceive our culture? And then internal, what are the barriers? Internally presented a regional leadership conference in the spring. Um, and nobody in, I think they'd been doing this program for 15 years in region one. And it spread but the other reason, um, nobody really tackles culture. Issue of culture and it's not easy and it is hard to deal with

Abby: 6:06

nail on the head right there. I mean they don't deal with it because it's not, it's a very difficult and complicated.

Jesse: 6:11

So when it comes to my case personally, after going through that, I'm already dealing with harassment and were prego palliation from a fire where I was a whistleblower in 2015 I didn't understand that. That's what that was. I was just standing up for what is right and what is not right.

Abby: 6:31

So let's, let's, let's roll back. Let's roll back to that point. Cause you didn't even know at that time that that was an issue. So, but let's roll back to 2015 and the fire where now you realize that you were a whistleblower. Tell me about that fire and, and what you spoke up about.

Jesse: 6:49

The only thing it would've been, oh, July, I believe later mid July it was the bear lake fire. The fire was already established, it's just, it had grown. So they needed a reinforcement load to go support a protect a particular property. Buffalo ranch, it's the most northern buffalo ranch in North America. It was an air strip and about a sectional land. We had oh six lower 48 hours and then one AK jumper. And uh, the Aka jumper was a friend of mine. I thought he was a friend. But in Alaska it doesn't matter how much experience you've had, the AK jumper always takes lead for the assignment or either jumper in charge or IC.

Abby: 7:32

You guys were in Alaska for this fire?

Jesse: 7:34

We were in Alaska, yes. This was in Alaska. Gotcha. So we jumped the fire about seven at night. Feels like the afternoon, you know. And after about two hours, I'll just make this part brief about not even two hours into it. It was probably the most serious entrapment situation that I had been in. If it wasn't just jumpers out there, it would have been written about. And if we weren't all we were smarter, we would've pulled out our shelters in the point. So it starts with that. And then over the course of the next 48 hours, the AK Jumper is behaving badly. I know.

Abby: 8:11

And when you say behaving badly, like what do you mean by that?

Jesse: 8:14

Oh, a badly. Just drinking, overly drinking

Abby: 8:17

now at the fire guys came off.

Jesse: 8:20

So the reason why I think a lot of jumpers never talk to me anymore in the morning, I don't think I'll ever get back into jumping is because I was very frank and open about the amount of alcohol that is involved with jumpers. It's been traditional. Somebody on the load will have a flask or something like that. And it's been traditional since the beginning. But is grown into something different on a plane with let's say 10 jumpers, there's probably not a court room. Right. And, and that's cultural. I mean that's been around for awhile and even the AK jumpers were reprimanded for that. You know, years ago. It's still just, it's pervasive. It's just what it is. So with this particular incident with jumper, we were lying. There was a backstory to it. Where they had jumped a fire there and worked a fire there five years ago and that property owner, we're still trying to get land use agreements, contracts for field from five years prior. So we didn't know that you want to work 48 hours as we drove out. We don't understand that. So later within the 48 hours and then the land on comes over to say thank you cause we did, we saved this cabin cabinet was sitting there on the airstrip and then it uh, the actual house and Barn. Uh, livestock where it was, it was very, very good part. I mean you're high risk. All right. He comes over to say thank you. Uh, the oldest jumper on the loan from boys in here and I, we walked down to the pond. You're steering your, we'll walk down and check it out. Then we come back up to the fire. It's a totally different scene. The landowner and the jumper in charge, the Alaskan jumper is standing there face to face and the Alaskan jumper is threatening him physically. And that's only saw when we walked up. And that doesn't make any sense. So right. The other jumpers, whatever happen, every temporary that we're standing over, speechless staring and they weren't even trying to engage. So this now this property owner and his land owner feels like he's being circled.I can see him do a quick look around. He's a big guy. Uh, and so I step in and when the oldest jumper from Boise off the steps in. One landowner, the other jumper starts talking to a AK jumper, calm him down and I accompany the landowner back to his property, which was about a mile ATV ride. And it just, it didn't make any sense. So I come back. In everything's pretty chill around the campfire. And here's, here's this AK jumper. When we were, you know, first name basis, we had already been on a fires together. We sat down with him at the fire and I said, remember, remember when your grandmother brought us that birthday cake at that spot in San Bernardino? Or it was your birthday and you happen to just end up back at home. Remember when your grandmother showed up? She was wearing that side iron. Yeah. That was fun. That was good at Cape Town. What do you think about doing this a little bit differently? What did I miss? Yeah. And he immediately didn't take it. Well, he's an alcoholic who has emotional problems anyway. Which is why he resigned short supply there in AK. He got fired a time or two for various reasons.

Abby: 11:44

So this was his emo and everybody kind of accepted it.

Jesse: 11:48

Basically. No, it'd be one of the few jumpers that would actually interact with them. And that's how he and I became friends. Um, yeah, he flipped it and then he basically was like, you're problem. You're the problem here. I'm like, whoa. You just, all right. Nope. We'll deal with it tomorrow. And then the next day and then the next day and now we have a north stars. The crew from[inaudible] are there and he's in charge of all of our, uh, the load and then the crew. And he was personality with chip. I could tell that he been drinking already. It was easy to figure it out.

Abby: 12:25

What point in the day in shift is this? Where are you, you realize that he's already been drinking?

Jesse: 12:30

That's in the morning? Yeah, in the morning. And then, and then when I sat and talked with the landowner touch base with him again. There was whole story I didn't even know, but I could understand there was[inaudible] so what was going on here. You know, insurance smoothing out, trying to continue to smooth it out. And that's when the land owner told[inaudible] he has been watching this particular jumper go into his barn every day, every morning and drinking the liquor. Oh Wow. Cause the AK and landowner would have liquor referee kept it was in the barn.

Abby: 13:01

He was watching this jumper do his thing and then he, he hadn't said anything about it until you went and tried to just at least smooth some things over.

Jesse: 13:09

Yup. And then I was like, Oh, you're kidding me. Ah, okay. So that I tried to talk with the jumper again about that like, hey, you know, you asked us to do, especially professional now that the North Star. You're here, so what, what's going on here? And then that didn't work. He always just even further, I'm the problem. I'm bringing up a problem. J esse needs to be m oved off this fire.

Abby: 13:33

Just go, got the fraction. And yeah,

Jesse: 13:35

he tried to have me demoted and somewhere along the way that was kind of, that was kaboshed for one reason or another. Instead he was shifted over to a different part of the fire to do a straight thing.

Abby: 13:50

Was that just happenstance or did someone make that happen on purpose?

Jesse: 13:54

So many happened on purpose, didn't do love me. They transfer him off of that property over to a different property to be a striking leader. And then I was assigned to go continue probably about an acre sized spot by myself. So they put me in disengage with me from everything. And they wouldn't let the other jumpers, who I say they, it was the oldest jumper from Boise that then took over. Because I need to go basically kind of saw line around this acre and a half spotfire that had no operational. It was fine. It could burn, it could not burn. There was no reason to go spend that time. But he had me go do that, which separated me from everybody. One of the rookies boyst ried to help me, but you would get reassigned every time.

Abby: 14:38

So you were getting your dispose with busy work apart from everybody else.

Jesse: 14:42

Yep. And then I could never, I wasn't able to use the cell phone. And then I realized that even when I just wanted to call my times in which it was supposed to do, they were intentionally preventing me from using a Samsung

Abby: 14:54

isolation or exclusion or just sabotage.

Jesse: 14:59

Right. And when I finally did make a cell phone call, I called my timekeeper. And she was my rookie Cochran. She rookie to no eight, uh, but now with sheer the timekeeper. And so I talked to her about it. I told her everything that was going on and she said, you know, you didn't get back til in our base manager and I'll back you up. You're talking to me. Yeah. So we went through the rest of the assignment. For full 14 days. There were other things that happen there towards the end, but right when we got back to the base standing there, the Base Manager for AK is on[inaudible]. He's on forest[inaudible] for some reason. He and I get along very well. He's a good jumper. He is a good guy. The assistant base manager was there. And, uh, we're, we're sitting there and cavalry at the ops table counter and you're in position himself next to me and said, hey, you mind if we are, whenever we ever talk. Sometimes it's like, no, let's have one now. So we go back into his office, he closes the door and he's like, dammit, Jesse, what's the fucking problem. That's like Whoa, no, sit down. And I made him sit down and I made him read time, date, event, time, date, event in my notebook, Candy Dandy. And then after doing that I was like, okay, okay. I mean you're not getting a fair share on this one. And then he explains, that's what I found out that whole time they were trying to have me demoted off the assignment,

Abby: 16:23

buying your back names. We're in a rip it down. Right. So who knows what kind of phone calls and stuff were happening and

Jesse: 16:29

right. Exactly. And

Abby: 16:31

is it complete?[inaudible] I didn't even understand before all this is a complete adult mobbing situation and all the way from Alaska to Missoula

Jesse: 16:40

[inaudible] Did you say mobbing?

Abby: 16:41

Yup, mobbing. Yup. That's it. And I didn't understand any of that, but it's all of them basically mobbing together, you know, even over[inaudible]

Jesse: 16:49

Paula Craig, yeah, Jock Blocker in politics. But I showed them all my notes and everything and he asked me if I have with me the notes and I said No. If the AK base manager had asked me to leave the notes, I probably would have because I trust him. Right. You wanted me to leave the notes? I said, no. Do you want me to write, write them up. I'll type them up and send them back. Then there was nothing. I mean we deem up the next day. We timed out the guys from the lower 48, particularly the McCall and Redmond Jumpers were actually pretty pissed off at me. Come the next day and are just like, take a day off, go home, forget all or hurt. Are you guys kidding me?

Abby: 17:27

That's how they get by with it all the time.

Jesse: 17:29

Yeah. The nature of them directing that, replacing the blame. Like I tried to do what all pros more is when you see something wrong, you go and you talk to that person and you try and work through how to make it better instead of seeing something wrong and going and telling somebody else,

Abby: 17:46

go direct to the source. That's what we try to do in the beginning.

Jesse: 17:49

Yup. Direct to the source and that didn't work. And then to have the purposeful reassignment of me out in the middle of nowhere chatting around and mopping up an acre spot, acre and a half middle of the Tundra. While they have other conversations going on in differently paint this. And so I, I got ahold of the land owner because the land owner said, hey, if he's getting shit for this, give me a call. And so I called him and so he was friends with, I think it was like third in charge of AFS, Alaska fire. Uh, they were friends. So he called that guy and he put his side forward. This is all happening. I'm in route back. I get back and try and talk with about it. He doesn't want to deal with it at all. I've got no support. Even, even after the timekeepers spoke up for me. And the lands on their landowner timekeeper, I had no support from the base, the Jump Base, the AK manager came back to work and as soon as he came back, yes, he called me up and I was sitting there and we're going to parachute and it was about two weeks later, three weeks later. And sometimes that feels like, you know,

Abby: 18:56

Oh yeah. Especially in these situations. Yeah.

Jesse: 18:58

And I'm sitting there, we're going to shoot. And he calls and I answer it and he asked me and I get off the phone and here's the base manager who was in block anyway. I was like, oh hey. He asked me to write a letter brother, I'm going to go do that right now. And I didn't sit very well, probably differently, but I did write out and that's part of the records now or like fire document. I tried to generate support from the base by asking the base manager to read it and edit it, the training foreman to read it, edit and then my supervisor to read and edit. And I don't really think any of them. They didn't really edit anything.

Abby: 19:36

They didn't touch it. Yeah. They didn't want it. They didn't want their fingerprints on it. But to you or your attorney to give them some input and some ownership in it. You weren't just sitting there trying to rip everything down. Yeah, I totally see that.

Jesse: 19:49

And I sent it up there. I don't know what happened. I know that he still maintained his job. He was still out on assignments. The land owner was awarded the land use agreement contract for that buyer and the one pending from five years prior. And those were land use agreements, the entire air strip cabin section, you know, it was an enormous chunk of money.

Abby: 20:13

Yeah. And they had ignored him for five years and suddenly Poof, they're gonna, they're gonna honor that

Jesse: 20:18

award awarding both. And then I'm left there on my own. And so that was 15 a hiring season came around. Once again,

Abby: 20:28

you're a seasonal, not a permanent,

Jesse: 20:30

I'm not a permanent others' time on.

Abby: 20:32

And for those that don't understand that piece is the majority of the smokejumpers that we know there are those kind of mid, lower level GS grades and they're not permanent positions. They're the majority of the jump list at any jump basis, actually their seasonal employees. So oftentimes people will either have to leave the jump program to go get a permanent or get lucky enough to get an appointment there. So you're a temporary or seasonal wild land firefighter because that's where this smoke jumper jobs are.

Jesse: 20:58

Right. And this is, this is turned into advocation for that. How High River. So get to that in a minute. Hiring season came around. I was once again not awarded a permanent appointment. Did they gave I think four of them away that season. Only one veteran. But they all rookie afterall. Less qualifications. Less experience. Not even with a bachelor's degree in force management.

Abby: 21:23

Maybe you're in politics, not on paper.

Jesse: 21:25

Yes. And so I, I had asked, went into a base manager's office and I asked, okay, how come I didn't get it this time? And he said, you just don't do per diem timely enough.

Abby: 21:37

There's like, no, get your travel. Then soon enough,

Jesse: 21:40

right. I was like, come on. You know how it works. I have to maximize all my assignments. You're telling me after all this time I didn't get it because I couldn't do my DM time right now. And he's like, all right, no, you're right. You just need to be a team player. You're not a team player. Show us. You're a team player. And I asked Mike, do you realize what that sounds like that after everything that I just did this last season, I didn't get hired. And you're telling me because I'm not a team player. You know what that looks like. Okay. You show us your a team player. Okay.

Abby: 22:09

Yeah. I, I know and from my past in fire, he's not a bad dude, you know? I mean, and no matter who, he's knocked heads with, whatever. And that's what, that's what kills me is that people that end up in these, these messes as they are good supervisors, they want to be good leaders. But there's so much political and social pressure going on in this web of that. Like in this jump program, it's so social, political that no matter how great of a guy than is, he's making these decisions and suggesting these things based on that social influence and it can just rip an entire environment apart.

Jesse: 22:44

Yes. That is extremely accurate. Hate the gang off the player. That's how I've always tried to be. I've also had a very wide open and you know, he'll get high, he'll get mad, but it'll pass and we'll move forward and we can talk into his frustration

Abby: 23:01

and that's how, there's nothing wrong with that. That's healthy. We need to be able to do that. And like you said, move. Yeah,

Jesse: 23:06

and I explained that during investigation for the first Geo and I can get along that way. Other folks not, not as easily. So on the hiring side of the six seasons that I was there in Missoula and hired 22 permanent GS.22. All of them but one rookie after me. And all of them but one either rookie through region one af or they were from Montana. The one that Brooklyn before me that got that GS six level now an eight. He took a downgrade from McCall to move back home. So there's that documented. And then 2016 comes around. And I honestly playing the game, I am trying to be a good team player. I'm just supported all the way through

Abby: 23:51

your tempo, every hope you can,

Jesse: 23:52

...anywho. Even more than I normally would going out of my way. But I've never, I've never played the game in my opinion. I thought it was simple. It was easy jumping. You work as hard as you can and you look out for everybody. Safety, the well being routine. You look out for everybody and that should be enough. I've always believed that and that's why I was being so patient. Uh, with not getting a permanent. And now you'd have the workforce flexibility act that made it so I can apply for a GS position, which I qualify for.

Abby: 24:25

Right? So that was your[inaudible] benefits and retirement and all of your time recognized.

Jesse: 24:31

And then I could be a spotter and that's really all I really ever wanted. I thought fine would be the perfect career. It was August of 2016 jumper fire outside of Mile City. And by this time now I've transitioned to a ram air parachute system and during that transition training period, I was also getting like wilderness CNC training. To do both of those at the same time is an extremely difficult task. In fact, nobody has done that before and nobody has done it. There's just so much, so much engagement. And I did both of them successfully and now here it is, 2016 we're jumping a fire outside Miles City. This is for my first season on a ram error. Now leading up to this jump I had, I had requested to have more jumps because I noticed that I was being held all the way out to the 30 day mark. Even if I'm at the base for 30 full days, they would still up until the very last minute and even one month I passed the 30 day period and it was on day 31. So if there was an assignment where I was, I'm first slow and if there was an assignment first thing in the morning, I couldn't have taken it because I wasn't proficient proficiency. All right. They had helped me back on purpose that many times over and over and over and I just transitioned over. Those are the ones that you need to have it more often. So here we are on a fire, we're jumping, um, first guy out the door and there's three of us. The jump spot is a six acre meadow and then downwind of it, there's a tall tree line, but then another six acre meadow, six acre meadow, downwind was my safety, my alternate jump spot. And it was close to the fire. We were let out entirely too early. Being first going out at three, I generate my separation and then there's no way I could've made the jump spot. So all I did was backup and landed in the safety zone in the alternate is a no brainer. The other two set up made it into the jump spot. No problem. I pack my gear, I made it over there before they kicked cargo. We jet cargo, reengage on fire. There's no issue. We go back to base, we talk about our jump. I explain exactly why. Everybody agrees. Nobody said anything.

Abby: 26:43

And you were going right. You're tired and tired by the way, right? I mean, you're trained to have these alternatives in place, do this, do that. If this happens, you do X, Y, Z. So it's not like you're doing something outside the box.

Jesse: 26:55

Correct. That's absolutely correct. And that's why jumpers do that for that decision making in the air. And it was for a good purpose. I had done it on the fire prior as well with first guy out the door. Winds were terrible. I just took an alternate so the other two couldn't make it and they did. It's just what happened. I explain it. We're done talking about it. The training foreman, he was just the one that I want to talk to you for a minute and we go to this very small secluded space. We didn't go to his office, we didn't do it in front of others. He took me to a very small closed broom closet is what it felt like almost. And he's much taller than I am.

Abby: 27:31

I know it's six plus.

Jesse: 27:33

Yeah. And um, once I checked three standing over me. And he said, I know why you took that alternate.[inaudible] I don't understand. I explained it. He's like, I know why you did it. You were showboating, you were showing off other people on the fire what you're jumping was all about. You're showing off.

Abby: 27:49

Okay,

Jesse: 27:49

sure. Are we talking about the same fire? No answer. Why do you think that is? Like, because that's why you did it. He was literally standing over trying to threaten. I've seen this happen with other campers who ended up losing their cool and getting fired. That is a tactic. Push their button, get rid of them. And I already knew that was a thing that I, I just, I stepped back and I was like,[inaudible] You had an issue with me for a little bit. I'm trying to work through this with you and talk through this with you. That's what I said to him. I'm gesturing my hand to my chest towards him back and forth, gesturing. You've got a problem with me. I'm trying to work through this with you. Initially put his hand in my face and getting aggressive. I was like, I'm out. I left. I left the room. Uh, that morning I said yes to an assignment in west Yellowstone. So about an hour after that meeting, we were on a plane to west Yellowstone. Where we spent three weeks, the locked foreman, we had issues in west Yellowstone that I called him out on that one. Just, just, uh, call him out and he apologize.

Abby: 28:45

So you're not cancelling people, because you call it like it is, right. And in rub some people the wrong way. They don't like that.

Jesse: 28:53

I do rub them the wrong way, but it is only leaders.

Abby: 28:56

Oh, interesting. Kind of more of a leadership threat sort of thing.

Jesse: 28:59

I wanted to jump since I was a kid. That's why I got my GS. Unfortunately, I thought I had to grow up in the Midwest. I didn't know what jumping was the thing. So I thought I had to go to college for it. Once I got into the program, I just stuck with it and then I became a ten point shot and then I've been in it. Yeah, it's been my whole world and I do have high expectations of especially leadership in a high risk job.

Abby: 29:20

Absolutely.

Jesse: 29:21

So I come back from west Yellowstone and this is where everything started to snowball. I come back as soon as I get off the plane, I put my gear in my locker. They asked me to come into base manager's office on that one. So I go in and then I'm issued a letter of direction. I've never seen one, I've never heard of one. A letter of direction is disciplinary in a sense. It'll sit in your personnel file for a year. If you don't violate the terms of that, then it will be expunged. But if you violate the letter of directions that direction given in the letter, then you can be disciplined all the way up to termination.

Abby: 29:58

Yeah. It's basically a warning shot that they can snap you on later with much easier than had they not written one.

Jesse: 30:05

I start to read it. It lists the fire. Right. It could be alternate. It lists that it says, the spotter asked me why he wasn't as far. He was[inaudible] in a small plane, so he wasn't even in the back. But when he asked me why I took that alternate, it says in documentation in writing that Jesse Sankey replying. I did it because I wanted to show other people on the fire what jumping was about. And I got walked in the sunset and so they paint me into an unsaved person. They'd lied 100%

Abby: 30:33

black and gray with no guilt. Wow.

Jesse: 30:37

They're hitting me with a letter of direction because I took an alternate on an operational job.

Abby: 30:41

Well, what were they directing you to do in the letter though?

Jesse: 30:43

In the letter? This is where the action question. If they're going to lie, then that means everything in that has to be taken literally, right? Whatever they're trying to say. Now, the direction states that I will make the jump spot every time designated by the spot period. Every time designated by the fire period. And that does three things. If I believe it, if I really, really believe that and I will risk life and limb, my own just to make the jump spot too. But I really believed it and I'm really going to risk my life and men, then I would put my own jump partners at risk. I would risk them simply because I was mandated and I have to make it so there are all kinds of scenarios, all kinds of situations that would arise where I would put them at risk

Abby: 31:27

for those that hear this and they don't really understand. A couple of things. I want to talk about your letter of direction and how it was identifying this whole showboat thing in the alternate jump spot. And how they even the fact that they even use that in a letter of direction just boggles my mind. Because that's not really how they're intended. But an an employee relations specialist wrote this for them. Like they didn't even write it. They just give them the information, they punch out these letters, right? Wrong or indifferent. They can be full of lies and they just go with it and there's no, there's no retribution. If they get caught lying, it's just, it's disgusting sometimes. Sometimes they're necessary. They're true, fine. But they are not always and so they did that and then that they put you in a box for something that is life and health safety. The USD forest service, one of the top risk situations is jumping out of a plane and safely landing on the ground. And you guys have different jump spots identified as primary alternate. Do you guys have, how many jumps spots do you usually identify when going into a fire?

Jesse: 32:29

Sometimes there's no alternate. There's only one spot

Abby: 32:32

because you don't have a choice though. Right,

Jesse: 32:34

right. Or there's always the option of train up.

Abby: 32:37

Right, right. But then you would lose your job apparently.

Jesse: 32:39

No, you wouldn't.

Abby: 32:40

No worries. No. You went after your, after the letter of direction. Yeah.

Jesse: 32:44

At any anytime. And in the other part of that is, uh, I'm extremely good canopy manipulator. I got my senior rigger at the end of my second year. I'm extremely good with parachute manipulation. I'd make spots. People don't. I've only treated up once in 199 jumps.

Abby: 33:00

Probably not a lot of jumpers. I can say that. No,

Jesse: 33:02

No they're not. I only knew of one.

Abby: 33:04

So this letter of direction they gave you identifying that you had to hit the spot identified by your spotter. So they're painting you into this box. Is there a took away from that? But I just wanted to make clear to some folks what this letter of direction is, how employee relations works, how is there, how there's some serious lack of integrity with it. And then really how much, because especially because you're a seasonal, this letter of direction is really serious for you because if it's sets you up on this very thin ice where it, because any cracks you're done.

Jesse: 33:31

One of the things about the letter of direction part as a temporary, I have no course of grievance at all. There is none and they knew that

Abby: 33:39

that's fine. They can tell the lies so easily

Jesse: 33:41

and to generate a letter of direction over an alternate on an operational job that that right there you're reprimanding somebody for a safe decision anyway and then you lie about the intent thing. Why? In documentation? Just that[inaudible] intent is inexcusable, you know, high risk job for managers, managers of people in high risk jobs and then that brings up third point of what that letter of direction did. That literal direction was generated by your spotter who lied and potentially could spot me in the door again and it is set up now where if I don't make the jump spot I get terminated. If he lied, why would he, why would he not miss spot me? Right. Determining that is a jumper spotter breach, an extremely coveted relationship

Abby: 34:28

and if someone's not going to share it, integrity, any office, why are they going to show it in the plane?

Jesse: 34:33

Right, exactly. That was, that was, I have to grieve your attempt. You can't grieve. However, the deputy fire and aviation chief, I went and talked to him about it. He said you could write up a pre grievance letter and you know he wanted me to go talk with him in a very open public spot and I didn't want to do that.

Abby: 34:51

Who was that at the time? Right.

Jesse: 34:53

It's still, he was a friend as well and he used to be a neighbor at one point. But he used my situation as a political pawn to generate power over the jump base managers, supervisors. At the time the fire and aviation chief position had not been filled yet. It would later get filled. I wrote up a pre grievance letter, I submitted it and then I was notified that an attempted, I have no grievance rights. I asked for third party[ inaudible] because obviously communication is the biggest issue here. We're just not you guys. My opinion, people weren't understanding. Nothing wrong with challenging your leadership for the health of others.

Abby: 35:33

No, and that's what we're taught to do.

Jesse: 35:35

That's what we're talking to. I really want anybody on my team to do that. The pre grievance didn't work. I filed a harassment claim. Is that as the only option available for a temporary trying to deal with it all internal from very beginning. If we were to ever do something like that, that it is finally reaching out of your immediate unit into a different leadership section within the forest service and we all have states and good leadership judgment. So I had faith that once I reached out then this would get corrected a little bit after. I've already built a personal relationship with Leon Martin and Jane Darnell. And they know me. That's all. Once I did that, then other things would come into play and it would be corrected. But the first harassment claim I filed, I did it December when I was laid off. Then by May, now it's April. I'll go back to the jump base and I thought things would just be smooth out or something. I don't know. I expecting

Abby: 36:35

you're expecting folks to do it made logical sense to make it better.

Jesse: 36:39

Yeah. Even if you just bring something up cause it was not binding. There was no, I thought maybe somebody in a higher position with this tell that person that they need to just relax. Honestly. That's what I thought. Yeah. But it just seemed like nothing happened. It's like, wow, everybody's being really professional. If that did happen to Texas in April of 17, I ended up with a wicked knee infection, will put me in the hospital for three days. Cut my assignment short. And I, then when I got back then things were different than it seemed like there was discussion, there was something while I was gone. Now I'm going back to work. Maybe they waited until I got back to work to do the investigation part. And then the reprisal was classic and unbelievable. Uh, I could not believe in a professional government setting. The reprisal that was happening. And it was stressing me out big time. I ended up uh, on an assignment to go back to Minnesota and did the same assignment prior. Now I'm headed there and just before I left for the assignment on the day prior, now I'm working with the Union folks union 60. And I'm a temporary. So I don't, I'm not in a bargaining power group. I have no representation through the union either. They asked me to go back to DC during lobby week to lobby for a particular bill and union 60 wanted me to go as a representative.

Abby: 37:59

Well because you've been involved in you're well-spoken. And you're educated and you're passionate. So you're really kind of one of the perfect people to go do that.

Jesse: 38:06

And the a particular bill I really do believe in, even though I would not have any benefit from it. If you're a first responder or emergency personnel for the federal government, be it law enforcement or while land fire, if you're injured in the line of duty and you cannot return to your high risk job as a result of that injury. Then you still maintain your 20 year retirement. Now that isn't the case. And that hasn't been the case. One of them, one of them was my old rookie trainer and he's not, um, articulate as they were, as they wanted. So they had asked me if I wanted to go with you or that your particular year working with them. Right before I went to Minnesota, HR filed a harassment claim. Retaliation claim on my behalf.

Abby: 38:49

An HR representative filed that for you because they recognized it.

Jesse: 38:53

Yes. And two days later, I think, or the weekend later, it's Monday, Monday morning at 5:30. I'm in Missoula, TSA line and Leanne Martin, our regional forester steps up in line behind me because she was going somewhere. She's like, hey, how's your season? Is like, what do you know about my two craftsman claims? She's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Let's step out of line and let's talk about it. I said, yes, please. So we stepped on a line and we go off to the side and for about 40 minutes I, I lay things out there for, I didn't, didn't want to miss that flight. Uh, I didn't, I also did not know that they closed the gate 10 minutes prior departure. So I'm sitting there with the region one forester.

Abby: 39:34

Yeah, you've got the regional forester there in the airport by accident and you're turning to definitely want to take advantage of that Chit-chat.

Jesse: 39:40

And she had asked. She asked me how things were going and so I told her honestly, long story short, but that's a very key part of this whole case of this that was hidden. Uh, I missed my flight because I was talking to the regional one forester about my harassment claims. I missed my flight. I caught a flight later in the afternoon that put me in Duluth and to spend an evening in the roof. By the time I got to Duluth, there was a manager that called as the fact finding entity for my first harassment claim. And now the retaliation claim. I mean she was functioning as deputy regional forester at the time and her and I spoke while I was sitting in a hotel room in Duluth in the morning, the next morning for about two hours. But I was terminated because I missed my flight. That's why I was terminated.

Abby: 40:24

You're kidding me.

Jesse: 40:26

That's why I was terminated. And they rolled that termination mine, one of my harassment claim reprisal claim, I actually listed some jumpers knowing that was a risk that there was an incident that was very blatant obvious in front of everybody. So three of the jumpers that I listed, two of them were friends, good friends and both of them said they were neither close enough to see right here, which breaks my heart quite a bit. Because they were, now they're promoted and then the other one it took a chance to list him but he was a fellow EMT. We had been on a lot of fires together as a recent and he was standing right there and everything. I reported, he reported the exact opposite and Jesse was the aggressor.

Abby: 41:08

It comes down to these people who you think are your friends, who are your friends and they get asked to speak up as a bystander and their instinct goes, let's see who's going to secure my future. Is Jesse going to help my future? Or is the smoke jumper program going to help me? And they turn on their friends. It's one of the saddest things I've watched and experienced firsthand. It's, and it's painful.

Jesse: 41:32

Nope. I've witnessed it in the 11 seasons I was a jumper. I've watched jumpers throw other jumpers under the bus. I never thought it would happen with me. I don't know why the lesson is learned. It's been there and then everybody's face. But as you're younger, just trying to get in. Now I'm understanding quite what you're seeing and given the ego process, silence is paramount.

Abby: 41:53

Right. And allowed.

Jesse: 41:55

That's I think big problem and why nothing ever gets corrected is because nobody has to admit why somebody is just taking several days off in the middle of the fire season. You don't know why they can claim whenever they want. And same goes for when I was terminated talking to regional forester about all these issues and then once I'm removed, I've heard all kinds of reasons as to why

Abby: 42:17

and they actually put that in your letter. Did they put that failure to follow direction or something like that? How did they articulate that?

Jesse: 42:24

They uh, it states I missed my flight. So then they list the, uh, provision within the employee handbook is cause violation.

Abby: 42:32

And did that regional forester ever speak up for you or did you talk to her again?

Jesse: 42:36

No, they're in lies. Kind of a wake up call

Abby: 42:39

brother. I have got a story that is almost verbatim to yours and then some like with a regional forester. And yeah it's shocking to see the level of positions and the lack of integrity. I don't know how a lot of them sleep at night. It's a really disappointing, I mean it's one thing, you know, to be a jumper pro and not take care of your buddy and then to be in these high level national positions and not even do the smallest of things or try to do the right thing outside the box to take care of a, an employee. It's just, it's why I resigned and it's what I put in my resignation letter. The lack of integrity and moral courage that is held by these federal employment officials just is nothing short of disappointing. And you just gave a perfect example

Jesse: 43:21

and it starts early. If you can demonstrate that you're willing to subjugate your own personal integrity to be a good soldier, so to say, in support and management decision that has been directed to them for some reason, then you'll get promoted. And so once you establish that, when I was a younger temporary, there's always that phrase playing the game to get in. By the time I'm done with it, I now understand exactly what playing the game really does mean. And I never did. I never played that game.

Abby: 43:47

You never would. You never will. Never will. You should be proud of that. Damn proud of that.

Jesse: 43:52

No, it's still am

Abby: 43:53

all the way not to the bank, right? We're damn proud of it. We might be unemployed because we're standing up for ourselves and what's right and not playing the game. But you know what? I don't care how much money you've got. I don't care what kind of great position you have, how you are of yourself and your career. I know I sleep better at night than those who had do people wrong like this. That's a priceless thing. Like he said, mine is priceless and you, you can't put a value on that.

Jesse: 44:15

I 100% agree. The other part is I don't know how anybody, what is our agency culture? What is that agency culture? Fire culture that promotes exactly what we're told never to be. That is who gets promoted. All the

Abby: 44:31

right. They promote those people and then they spend tens of thousands of dollars on a leadership class that teaches all the people exactly the opposite of that kind of behavior. They teach us duty and respect and integrity and and all of these great leadership values and then they promote the people that display something completely opposite.

Jesse: 44:32

Exactly. They don't understand that part and then when it trickles all the way into a high risk job. I know that whole mentality is part of life out there. People have been telling me that over the last year or two. It's just the way it is everywhere end of point. But how is that true in such a high risk job?

Abby: 45:05

What I, what I've been saying for a while now, and I said it to my FMO's face, I said it to my regional forester, I said it to my forest supervisor. I said, do you know all these little things that are happening? This is exactly what fatality investigations are made of. Because someone dies and a huge internal or external investigation happens and then they go back and they find all these little micro human behaviors or situations that occurred that contributed to major disasters. Because of all these human factors we're talking about right now and decision making and attitudes and hazardous attitudes and you know, all these little things it's a huge Swiss cheese effect. Whenever I would say that they just, they didn't want to be in the same room. Because they knew that it was partially true. They didn't want to touch it.

Jesse: 45:49

Putting it in that regard. She, Luke and I were Ricky trainers together and Redding. He was my roommate, my favorite, you know, person or running. And we would talk a lot about playing the game just to get in. Those was kind of the ongoing discussion we had. But uh, when, when you pass away, what we've done now is it, for me, there's like no more, there's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't say something cause I know exactly how it could end. I know how it'll go for some folks for very few, but it'll still go that way.

Abby: 46:23

Maybe not today, maybe not on this fire. Right. If you don't speak up now, it's just going to continue.

Jesse: 46:28

It was just a realization that there's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't speak up when something's not right. Cause that's what we're promoted to say. That's how we've been trained. If you see something that's not right, you speak up, you say it. And that's not true. As soon as you do that, things are,

Abby: 46:42

you're ostracized, you know, and let's say, you know, if, if there's a tree falling, you see the tree coming and you say something and you get someone out of the way, that's perfectly fine. It's expected you save someone's life. Now in any other scenario that's not like life or death, it's like it's not okay. It's not allowed,

Jesse: 46:58

right? It's like the layers in the uh, swiss cheese. You see the immediate block of it, you see the holes right there in your face. That could be your operational safety hazards. Uh, your essay tells you this, but then the layers, those have holes and there are reasons why holes line up. Now when you have a culture in place that generates cheese that has big holes, you're gonna have more issues and that would then trickle down into looking at a two year period here recently where seven jumpers die. Two in the line of duty and five by suicide. That's what I mean about that background hole is so big things happen that aren't even on the fire. And had deep consequences and that's the culture that needs to change.

Abby: 47:45

There are a lot of really great people out there. There I've worked with for and beside some really great leaders. There are some out there that should not be there. That are either being promoted or moved around for the wrong reasons. The conversation that you and I are having right now, this is a conversation that happens a lot across the country, in the bar on a fire. You know, someplace where nobody else is hearing it. These conversations are happening all the time, but nobody hears about them. You know, they need to be heard about. They need to be talked about out loud. They need to be captured that people are terrified to have them. We are willing to have this conversation and you know what? We're gonna have it. We're recording it and we're going to publish it so that other people can hear this conversation. That usually happens in the bar or on a fire behind closed doors. They're going to hear it out loud. It's going to piss some people off and some people are going to be like, oh my God, yes, that is my exact life. This is happening across the board and I guarantee you that these kinds of behaviors have killed people. We're just not admitting it. We're not putting it out in a report. I guarantee you they have,

Jesse: 48:45

it's the factors in the background. Yep.[inaudible] sit at the base and have to deal with all of that pettiness, that jock locker room approach, and then for the horn to go off in the afternoon and then I shoot up and then go engage. That's when everything's simple. When the horn goes off, everything prior to that, all that negativeness. Negativity that leads to poor decision making later on down the road while you were engaged. So I can deal with it in shop at the base and then stop.

Abby: 49:15

Yeah, and you're just supposed to turn it off when you're here.

Jesse: 49:17

Right. That's not practical.

Abby: 49:20

Absolutely. Not there's the, there's the trust factor of those that are beside you. You can't trust them back at the base. Why are you going to be able to trust them on the side of a mountain?

Jesse: 49:29

Before I do the one thing that has the most consequence for me, then I will engage on it on a fire. And I have to question the parent of the person who has large control over my wellbeing. How does our agency culture? How does that mentality that we are discussing? How does that trickle all the way into more of the most high risk positions that are wild land firefighter can have? And the most responsibilities and another one could have? How does that trickle into bat? Even if it is trickle all way into jumping the spotter, the relationship is gone so far is sour that that means that it's pervasive, it's everywhere. What is that it has to be recognized and discussed? Yup. Cause there were, there were people that had been fun into jumping very qualified, very skilled, very capable individuals that love jumping. Probably romanticize about it since they were kids and we put them in those situations, in that environment and they could have gone done anything else with their lives. They could contribute any other way to a greater wellbeing. But they opted to go down that route. And that's the leadership that you took. And as it stands at the moment, that was an example. If you speak up like Jesse did. You end up like Santi, don't be like saying, so that trickles down. So 10 years from now and somebody who's a GS seven now or, or a spotter eight now then becomes foreman. They've been shown how that goes. They were shown that you can lie, you can oppress, you can threaten anybody anytime, and you'll probably end up getting promoted

Abby: 51:02

long as you keep your mouth shut.

Jesse: 51:04

Yep. Keep your mouth shut. And whenever asked, you were not close enough to see here.

Abby: 51:08

Oh, my favorite one liner from a, well, all the managers that I've lost respect for HR and especially ER, was you've got to protect the agency. Above all protect the agency. And that right there is where we lose a lot of people that could be good leaders. They make poor choices, they're dishonest. They throw their integrity out the window because they protect the agency instead of protecting that jumper.

Jesse: 51:32

Yup. As long as you're willing to display that, you know, subjugate your own personal integrity to be a good soldier, you'll get promoted. In that town nothing changes. That's why nothing changes.

Abby: 51:42

I know it doesn't even matter, Jesse, if you have conflicts with people, people will listen to this. People from the jump base and they'll be like, oh, that's crap. Jessie was on there and he said this and that and did you hear he threw so-and-so into the bus and he you've seen named this name or you know, he's just a, and they can throw whatever names they want to out there. Whatever it makes them feel to deflect it. It doesn't matter how many people you rub the wrong way or how many people you don't get along with because it's not that. It is not about Jessie and a personality conflict with someone else. Sure. There's the pieces of this and that happened and I wasn't there and so I'm only hearing your side and that's fine, but I've seen it everywhere I've seen. It's not like this is an original story. That's what I need people to understand. This is not original. This is happening repetitively across the nation in these high risk situations. These high risk jobs and it's happening in the low risk jobs too this kind of behavior. So no matter what your personal situation is, your personality conflict with someone, like people need to not get wrapped up in that, in this, in this interview, in this story, and realize they need to pull that away and hear all of the base that you're talking about when we're talking about the leadership integrity and the high level. That we should be holding our people too. Those are the pieces they need to hear because right, wrong or indifferent in all of your background story, no matter what those, those statements are true and everybody all the way up through the Washington office listening to this, they know that's true and they know that they need to do better. They need to do better. They need to grab and hold of people who cared enough to go get educated, who are passionate enough to give this the time, the thought and the effort and find a way to help you flourish and utilize your knowledge. And your motivation to make the agency better. But they take the easy out, they you as causing a problem and they kick you out of your whole career as soon as they can find an easy way to do it. Because you know what, we can't figure out how to manage Jesse for all of his strengths. We can't figure that out. That's way above our head and heck, we're probably intimidated by it. That's probably how they're feeling inside. They just won't admit it. You're, you're too difficult to actually be able to capture and take value in all of your, everything you have to offer. So they kick you aside and they push the easy button and they take on and let the ones that are easy to manage. So what if we have to deal with an alcoholic here or there? He at least goes the jump spot I want them to and doesn't say, tell me why he didn't. It's a really, it's going to be the demise. I'm not just worried that it's going to be the demise of an agency. I am worried about all the people it's going to kill in the future might seem drastic, but it's a fact.

Jesse: 54:06

I do. I do worry about that. Exactly that what is going to come later. A whole host of factors that are in play at the moment that are making it more difficult to deal with fire, lack of funding or denial of the increase of it coming, shutting down from the job corps locations. None of it makes sense.

Abby: 54:26

No, and this and like what we're talking about is very agency specific with USD in forest service. And but these management and leadership behaviors, it's not just the forest service and USDA, this is this kind of thing is happening in several agencies, several professions, private and federal all over the place. So what we're talking about here, it doesn't just have value in our small culture, in our small agency, it has value across the board. And folks hopefully are open minded enough to see that people that have been reaching out to me have been from everywhere, every walk of life, every profession out there. And the stories are the same. You know, you're just in one that happens to be a lot higher risk and you have a much higher expectation of the behavior of your leaders. We see it a little bit more, it's a little more highlighted and I think when I asked if you'd like to chat on the phone today cause I didn't know your story, I didn't know your background and we just jumped on the phone to chat and look at how much value we have talked about this. These conversations need to happen. We had to be out of the agency to confidently have it. And that is sad and that needs to change.

Jesse: 55:35

And then there's the EEO process still pending. I'm still waiting for a hearing in the San Francisco office. Every day I'm waiting.

Abby: 55:42

I wanted to ask you a couple of things surrounding that before I talked to you about the EEO thing and the whistleblower thing. A really difficult piece that I am sure you're experiencing is being pushed away from because it's not a job, right? Being a smoke jumper, it wasn't a job to you. It was probably a complete lifestyle as a way of life.

Jesse: 56:03

I've dedicated everything to it. Never been married, never had kids. Uh, I don't own a home. I haven't really geared old life choices so I could be a jumper. And I have for a very long time. So it's been the one stability in the family that comes with it. But I see where you're going with this. Um, black, my, there are few jumpers out there right now that actually talked to me. In fact, there's less than half a dozen and been friends, good friends, Barbie's one or two jumpers from around the country. But I've lost that. That family that's hard in the longer the EEO goes without the judgment, without the administrative determination. The longer that the blackballing goes, the character defamation goes. They see me coming down the street and they'll actually look away. Know little things like that. Those are killers.

Abby: 56:55

They are, and they literally can be. Like it can wreck your mental health and your emotional health to someplace that can be hard to pull back from. And I didn't, I didn't ever really wrap my mind around what a loss of identity, what that really meant to us. Until a couple of years ago, I was listening to one of the wildfire lessons learned podcast with Travis Dotson, and he talked about that. They were talking about, you know, whether it's an injury or you have to step away from the job for whatever reason, or you get fired. But I was talking about that loss of identity and how it can really have an effect on your life. And I was sobbing and in tears because I was in a place where everything was getting taken away from me. Everything I loved about my job was getting stripped away from me as a way to just torture me. And I realized why it was working so well because it was my identity. It wasn't a job. It was who I was. Yeah.

Jesse: 57:46

The moral is to to be able to lobby for firefighters who are disabled now through the line of duty. And I've known jumpers who are that way. And it's not just damn, I'm sure they, they themselves go through that mental cycle, their emotional cycle through a change, and now you're disabled. That invokes a lot. But then the stress on the family family's also affected. So the more loss comes when you're dealing with all of this. You're seeing your coworkers having to go through that process and that's through being disabled. But then senior coworker who did nothing wrong, it was only looking out for the betterment and then you see how they get treated and there's the silence support that articulates that that hurts too, just as much if not more. Right? You're into this agency now you're working for them. Everything that you thought was good about it comes into question. When you see, uh, another coworker go through that and there's the silent group out there that do appreciate speaking up, respect you for it, but they can never really say anything to you. There is that moral law side of it. Yeah. And that was articulated to me by somebody else. And then we start to move into is you're doing and where you're working for. And that's where I think forest service could start doing some correcting.

Abby: 59:09

Yeah. They have to do something completely outside of the box and outside of what they've ever done.

Jesse: 59:14

Managers have to be held accountable and they have to say why. Right. So the conclusion of my first EEO ADR, I around to resign and then I believe one of the supervisors had ticket downgrade from the GS 11 to GS 8 and you got to call for whatever reason, he said he wanted to work more on his family then yeah, being a supervisor in his last years,

Abby: 59:36

I knocked heads with the ranger about that one time because there was an issue with one of the supervisors in our office and I had brought up a lot of the issues and I just said, I need to know if this has been handled. I need to know because it's going to get somebody killed. And he said, well, I can't tell you that, you know, I can't. It's, it's confidentiality. And I said, I don't care. I need to know how am I ever supposed to feel settled if I don't even know if he handled it. And he goes, well we, we handled it and I go, I don't believe you. And he goes, well, would you want me to talk about your discipline to your employees? And I said, absolutely. If I screwed up and I got called out on it, tell my people so that they see that and they're like, oh man, we better not do that. Or Hey, she was held accountable. You know, and I, I get that there is policy out there and I think that policy is above the forest service. It's not that they can necessarily easily do something about it, but something has to change.

Jesse: 1:00:25

Yes. And yes, unfortunately that that policy is in place and that's going to take more than just leadership decision to shift that. But we are in agreement on that. There needs to be accountability from leadership. Like you said, if you made a bad decision, then it's okay to share it. Hiding behind that. Definitely if a leader could act knowing that any poor choice or any poor management they had could be overtime kept confidential. They would make decisions differently. Yeah. If everything's wide open, if you're ever disciplined, it's okay to share it. Right. I think you would streamline at least moderate

Abby: 1:01:05

it, just flat out accountability. It would just fix a whole lot of that, you know? People would either see people got in trouble for doing something and they would not do it. Went back in the day and they would put duns cap is on kids in classrooms, right to call the kid out and then nowadays they write their name on the board and you don't want your name on the board. All the other kids know that you screwed up. They don't want to screw up and get their name on the board like you. And we need to do something more in these federal agencies and in the forest service because there's too much of the confidentiality where it needs to be lifted and not enough where you know there's places that are supposed to protect people with confidentiality that are victims and that isn't being held up. And then the fact that you don't have to speak up, you don't get in trouble for not speaking up. We need to start nailing people for being there, being bystanders and either one not saying anything or two lying about it. People should be more afraid about that than they are

Jesse: 1:01:58

that going through mine, EEO processes, listing people. And then to see how they respond. That was a wake up.

Abby: 1:02:07

Yup. Oh No. I had someone that came to me, told me all these things that were going on. Wasn't afraid to come to me and tell me the facts. I mean, the emails give me all of the evidence. And when it came down to listing that person as witness, I started getting text messages, very upset and very emotional about how that employee didn't want to put their family at risk by speaking up. They didn't want to be a witness and lose their job. And we sent that to the attorney. The attorney sent it to the agency saying like, look, this is how bad this is. This is how scared people are, that witnesses aren't willing to be witnesses and that's wrong. And we can't trust people's integrity and we can't even get the agency to hold them accountable. But the thing that is, it's not so much as people's out, this culture has put them in that position. You know, I've got a couple other people that I put down as witnesses and they went silent and or they didn't answer the inquiries. I forgave them for that because they were the sole providers for their family and they were watching what was happening to me. Just like you said, you don't want to be like Sankey. They were watching what was happening to me and if I didn't have my family to fall back on, I would have been toast. And they, they didn't have that room for risk in their life, so I get it. You mentioned that you're going back to the EEO and the actual legal piece of this. You mentioned the whistleblower thing. Has what you have been dealing with, has it been recognized as actual whistleblower activity?

Jesse: 1:03:25

No. I should've listened to my mother. And other a word, the one legal that I had, I should have contacted somebody else about that part of it. It would be treated more as a whistleblower.

Abby: 1:03:38

It's hard to accept and understand though what that truly is. I mean, it really, really is hard to understand because what we see about whistleblowers are these huge like corporations or someone calling out, you know, something on this big official basis or this group of employees. Like we see it in the media and so we don't really realize what it is on a lower level. Like on a personal level in our jobs, we don't understand what that really means. You know, it doesn't have to be some big official like, hey everybody, I'm going to blow the whistle now. Like it's just reporting wrongdoing. A lot of people really don't understand that.

Jesse: 1:04:11

It's gradual. It's been gradual right after the fact that that's what it was.

Abby: 1:04:15

I am putting you in connection with some really great employment attorneys who used to work someplace where they worked for the corporations and agencies that took people down unfairly. And they started to recognize that they were not on the right side of things, that they were helping these corporations take employees down just to protect the corporation and not doing right by the employee. So long story short, there's a very long story to it, but a very noble one that I have a lot of respect for. They see people having to pay out of pocket to even be able to stick up for themselves in these situations because, I don't know, Jesse, do you have 150,000 extra dollars in cash laying around?

Jesse: 1:04:54

No, I don't.

Abby: 1:04:55

You got to survive after this. So they, they see that too. And they want to be able to help people for free. And then if the case works, they'll work on a contingency level, but they are doing it for the right reasons. And they're very knowledgeable and I'm going to put you in connection with them. And if there's any way that they can help you get through this, they will, you'll still be able to survive in the process. So, and the attorney that I had throughout the whole, my whole process, and I'm still using because it's still, we've still got stuff going on. I had to put a lot of money up front because I just, I couldn't find anybody that would help me on contingency. And they were very highly recommended and that firm has done an amazing job, but it is cost a lot of money. And when these other attorneys found out about that, like how much money people like me were having to put forth ahead of time, especially federal employees, they were, they were dumbfounded. But in EEO cases there's not a lot of cash to be had if you win. Like attorneys don't make out big on these cases and that's really the main reason why it's hard to find a firm that will take on cases on contingency because Jesse, if you're found to be right, if you're, if your case goes your way, there still isn't a big windfall of money. It's never about the money. An attorney has to be doing it for other reasons.

Jesse: 1:06:06

Good to hear you say that. Surviving after for somebody in my position who is pretty much geared their entire life towards jumping, no marriage, no kids, no holdings, I'm just, I'm here for big earnings. So the idea of after, that's good. You're good to have in your head when you go into this.'Coz right now, honest with you, everything. I will not stop because jumpers don't. 500 stones. This is in no way shape or form my bad decision making. This is somebody else's. I put everything into it this far. I'm going to put, keep putting everything into it and it may not go as we would like when we started this process. Here's always that,

Abby: 1:06:46

But do you know how powerful just this conversation that we're having right now is in? Do you know how much value some other people are going to find in it who are struggling are going to find in this? So they may be. It's going to be effects that you'll never even be aware of. It's going to affect people that you will never know about. That's why I decided to resign and I had so much more ability to help the system. Other people, the agency from the outside, I can never be doing this. I can never be talking with you about this and planning to produce a podcast with it. We were having all these conversations in hiding because people are terrified.'cause there'll be removed once you're a target. It can be anything or moral courage has increased even more and now it's, it's an internal and power integrity. Like it feels good to be doing the right thing even though it's not going to help financially. It is not helping me socially and it's not helping me. I'm broke man. I'm broke and I live at the home at the family ranch because I put everything I had into fighting for the right. A lot of people won't do that and I don't expect everybody to, but what you're doing

Jesse: 1:07:45

Technically I'm homeless, hard to find another job and actually I'm pretty terrified because I want to jump again. But it's not equal. Put it out there for everybody because it is valuable.

Abby: 1:07:56

You all never know about the life that you saved because you did the right thing. You will not know that. It's just like when I realized that fire prevention was an, I'll never know the million acres or the fatality that was avoided because I prevented a fire cause you can't quantify that. Don't be a chicken and see that he's involved in an EEO case. Try to stay away from him as far as you can because all you see is liability. You know, I had a judge tell me that the administrative judge said, Do you know Abby, it would benefit them so much if they would grab and hold of everything that you know and everything you're willing to help them with? But they can't see past you being a liability and that's a judge telling you that and admitting that the agency is that shallow because they have attorneys that don't care about you Jess e. They don't care about smokejumpers. They don't care about fire line fatalities. They just care about the bottom line and keeping the agency there. You're just like, you're just budget dust. You're just, you're just another line item and the forest service needs to pull its head out.

Jesse: 1:08:49

I'm looking forward to frank discussions with their agency representative.

Abby: 1:08:53

The EOC knows that something's going on and they know that something needs to change. That was very clear to me.

Jesse: 1:08:59

I have taken me some sort of comfort in that I wouldn't have made it to at least waiting during this ambiguous time period for a judge to be assigned. It wouldn't have made it this far if somewhere along the way somebody didn't determine if there was merit.

Abby: 1:09:14

Find a way to throw your case out basically is is why you are where you are. Because if they can find any reason or they can make a preliminary decision ahead of time, they will absolutely do it because the last place they want it to go is in front of an administrative judge. And the judge even told me, he said, we have so much pressure to get rid of any case that we possibly can before it ever gets this far. We are encouraged to throw them out, but the ones like yours and mine that are completely undeniable, they end up in front of a judge and there's a lot of power in that. So the fact that you are being assigned to judge, that says a lot and that means that your case is pretty serious.

Jesse: 1:09:48

If they were in a play jock locker room politics, which I always disengaged from. That they would really want to play politics. I did the same in a way, I assume that Jon Tester Democrat from Montana and Jerry Moran Republican out of Kansas, I talked with both of them, uh, in their parties offices and I generated support from them, uh, on the case. So maybe, maybe that's how I'm making it in front of the administrative judge.

Abby: 1:10:16

Uh, Congressman McCarthy helped me get mine. Well it was dragging on and dragging on and dragging on and I was assigned to a judge. I had far too much of a case load. And my congressman got involved. I just happened to be introduced to him in a roundabout way. And next thing you know, he came in, threw out the first pitch and my kid's little league game and talked to him and his wife and next thing you know, I'm assigned to fresh new judge who had a clean calendar. It was enough to help me get things moving forward because it had already gone on for years. From the time that you call bs on something and you officially speak up and then you're just supposed to go back to the office, back to the jump base, back to the sewing room like and nothing's happening. It just festers and it gets so much worse. People just don't understand. It's not as simple as filing a piece of paper and then everything is going to be easy peasy back at the loft. Your life becomes complete hell

Jesse: 1:11:04

and I have a lot of empathy for, for those folks who have actually filed one already and they are still working in their location on a fortunate enough I, I only sat in that environment or a week or two while the investigation harassment claims for being investigated. That takes I think a little bit more. That pulls harder on the particular employee that actually did that to then go everyday. I've been fortunate enough that I can go do whatever I want while I'm dealing with this.

Abby: 1:11:32

Yeah. There is a lot of value in that. I know that you're having a difficult time finding a place to live right now, but it is very hard to be in that position and they just look for your next miss flight or that you parked crooked or they'll look for anything. So that whole time that you're there and you're just in an extreme risk for them to find the next little step to get you on. So you're, you're in a good place not being there right now though. I know it's very hard because the entire wild-land world is in Alaska fighting fire as we speak and it's gut wrenching to be pulled away from that. Whether it's by choice, by injury, by legal reason, by being fired. It's really hard. And so Jesse, I know that you're having a tough time and that what you're doing right now, man, this is your legacy, whether or not you see it right now, it is. So people are going to say like, don't be like Sankey but thank you. Just threw it all out there on an interview and it's going to make some waves and I think that's really important. You know, I week after the two days after I sent in my resignation letter to as many people as I can possibly get it out to, uh, this senator that I've never even talked to reach out to her, anything like that. She called out and quoted my letter in the budget hearings in Washington. Like it made a difference, you know, it got as senator to ask our chief, what the hell are you doing? So that right there is a win because that just as senator calling out my letter, my resignation letter like that, that's, that's very powerful and not anything that I ever saw coming

Jesse: 1:12:47

during the appropriations committee that was perfectly timed

Abby: 1:12:52

tension and I couldn't believe it. Yeah. I didn't see that coming at all.

Jesse: 1:12:56

It was very, um, proud and inspired by that actually.

Abby: 1:12:59

Thank you. Yeah, I couldn't have happened better. I really, that day that I heard about that was very surreal. It's those little, those little wins that you never even, we're striving for saw coming that they will happen and nobody, I need everybody to hear that. Here's this though, is to realize that nobody that goes to the EOC or that fights or files a complaint. Nobody does it for money because there is no amount of money they're allowed to give you that makes it worth it. People think that they make an assumption, not necessarily in our cases, but just in any, you know, case maybe if you're in a private corporation, private employment where they see those windfalls, that's not us the most that the EOC could ever grant us ever. And I'm talking about if somebody beat you nearly to death on a fire and threw gas on you and let you, the most that judge can ever give you is$300,000 and that my friends does not. Even if you ever got the very maximum, it never comes close to making up for the hell that you go through once you speak up in this, in this capacity. Sure. Yeah.

Jesse: 1:13:58

And I'm attempt. So it wasn't even a permanent employee. So it's not like I'm fighting to retain my retirement or anything. Right. We're trying to time as far as the forest service is concerned. My 16 years of fire amounts to eight years. Really. But now, since I've been out longer than two years, I no longer qualify for the workforce stability. So I get nothing out of it.

Abby: 1:14:20

And how old are you this year? This piece in our lives where we're too young for this, but too old for that. And uh, but then we've just gotten brave enough to really do what it takes to do the right thing, you know? And now we have enough life experience. It's like in those, those years where this started happening to you, you know, you knew enough to be dangerous because you knew enough to call it out. And that's when, that's when it can become really difficult. And thank you for talking to me and explaining so much of this to me. And it's going to be, people need to hear about this. So you're, you're right now you're still in the waiting game, is that right? You're just waiting for a judge to be assigned or you're waiting for a hearing date?

Jesse: 1:14:56

I'm waiting for a judge to be assigned. I didn't realize that once a judge is assigned, you've got 90 days, there's a set timeline. Everything leading up to moving into having a judge being assigned has a timeline in between having the representative for the agency being assigned to then having a judge being refined. That's ambiguous. That time period is ambiguous. I get your honest, since I've started doing this, I thought I would be back to jumping this year. Last year. I didn't realize the time frame. I didn't understand how the process is designed to where the claim,

Abby: 1:15:32

where are you down and hopefully[inaudible]

Jesse: 1:15:34

laymen. Yup. Just the little things having the, having you constantly call it a complainant versus a claimant. Right. Just little things like that. Everything is designed in the EEO process. Even when you have your case to just wear the person out right down and out, and that in itself has very negative consequences for the individual, for the individual's family,

Abby: 1:15:55

for those in the future who need to speak up.

Jesse: 1:15:57

Right? Yeah. don't be like Sankey.

Abby: 1:16:01

Well, you know what? One of these days people are going to say be like Sankey and don't be afraid to speak up because you know, I, I hear from, you're going to hear from people after this and I hear from people all the time that say thank you, thank you for speaking up. Thank you for having the courage. You know, cause once people hear that you're sharing your story on a bigger level and they realize that, you know, they're not alone. And a lot of people hear my situation think, oh well it's sick. It's just another female being harassed. And I'm so glad to talk to you because it's not just about the chicks, it's across the board. I hear from guys constantly, I mean, just like hearing from you, you know, it is, it's across the board. So

Jesse: 1:16:34

that is something that I've also seen a lot of people just engaging because they think this is more of a#Me Too. R ight. U m, issue. Even if it was, I mean, it's still the same principle.

Abby: 1:16:46

Well, we're switching it to a#Not me because we are not going to tolerate it anymore. So we're not going to be the me too cause it's not gonna be me. It's not gonna be US cause we're calling bullshit on all this. Then we're doing something about it. And I know there's a lot of people out there who are dealing with the same stuff that we are about. We are all pushed into dark corners and they hope that we don't talk to each other. Which is exactly why I started a Facebook group. It's why years ago I started a wildfire women's group just to get gals and fire to talk a little more because they're never around each other. You know this, the social media part of things is, it's killing agencies right now. I'll tell you what people are talking that are in different states and different countries, Alaska, Montana to, you know, it kills them for to be able to bully people just like they were doing to you, trying to get you off that fire and it kills them with us sharing hard truths with each other that normally wouldn't be shared. So they either need to get ahead of this and capture it and make it into something better or they're just going to keep getting crushed by leaders who are willing to stand up and speak out. And there's a lot of people that don't have, they just don't have it in their DNA to be able to do this. And I totally get that and I don't fall anyone who doesn't have this inside of them because it doesn't come naturally. I was just raised and I have, there's something in my blood that makes me and us this way and we owe it to the others, to other people that are out there who can't do it. We owe it to do something bigger.

Jesse: 1:18:08

You hit on a very good point. They have to get in front of it. There's no rule in the current status, the state of being right now. Whomever actually gets in changes that is going to be the next leadership into the future. It's in the face of management now. Something has to change fundamentally and it's gonna be a hard choice to make happen. But anybody that can do it, that will do it and move forward. That will be the next phase. That'll be the new leadership, the new direction it's coming. It has to. Otherwise the agency should shift out. It was created idealistic principals, stagnant at the moment. It's forced to deal with a lot of complicated issues all at once. And it can be, and that's what it's done in the past that has to adapt, evolve in anybody that steps forward right now and takes the lead on that. That is the new direction

Abby: 1:19:04

and we just got to get people to step forward and take the lead. Then have enough space in their career. They're not going to retire before they can really see it through. I see that happen a lot too and people are going to look back at this era and be like, before that and after that and right now we're living in the holy crap. That was really rough piece of it where where that really big thick line is drawn down the timeline and they're like, and then there was this time that was a really rough time where we were trying to get through all that.

Jesse: 1:19:28

I look forward to the future when we can look back and say it and laugh about it.

Abby: 1:19:32

I just hope that we survive. We were 40 now. I, Gosh, I don't know. Hopefully it happens in our lifetime and that's what I am. That's what I'm on a mission to get to happen. That's what we are doing by doing this is we want to see this happen by the time our kids are here. That's what I'm hoping. I have a nine year old. So hopefully by the time that he is in the professional community, you know I cringe when he says he wants to be a firefighter, but hopefully I can improve it and it's a better place when he gets here. Let's hope that things are going to have to change and we are going to make it happen. And you know, to all my, all my smoked up, her friends out there, I love Ya, but some things are screwed up. You know it. And if you're not accepting that in admitting it, then I'm sorry. But I would have this real conversation with them, with any of these people that are out there in the bar. I am going to have there. I would have it there and I'm having it now and I have a lot of respect for everybody and I know that everybody has different influences in their life that make them the way they are or cause them to, to behave the way that they do. And I just want everyone to really take a step back from yourself, from what you're doing and ask yourself if you're doing it right, are you being a good bystander? Are you speaking up when you should? Are you standing up for yourself when you should? You know, everybody just needs to reflect. And is there a Jesse Sankey running around your jump base that annoys the crap out of you and you would just want to do anything to get rid of him? Cause God, that guy just, he's always got something to say. He's just so smart. He's, you know, are you intimidated by people like him? What is the deal? Step back and ask yourself why, why do you see it that way? And what can you do to either embrace it or make it better is a good thing that we, that we got together and chatted. I really appreciate everything you have to say and how you say it. Of course they wanted you to go lobby in Washington because you're articulate, you know what you're talking about and it's not one or two sentences, man. You've got books worth of common sense, common, just basic common sense that needs to be applied to our principles. So don't stop doing what you're doing. Find a place to live, find a way to survive and get through this because it will rip your life apart just like it is right now. Standing up with this EEO stuff is not easy, but we need to find a way to make it easier so that more people are either brave enough and willing to stand up or other people knock it off to where you don't have to stand up. So let's keep doing what we're doing. We're not going to stop, deal? K K is, we're bringing some hard truths, so thank you Jesse.

Jesse: 1:21:47

I greatly appreciate it. Any idea I needed a conversation right on. It's been going on for long that people don't go the few that hear it don't even carry it on.

Abby: 1:21:57

Right. And it gets exhausting because you keep having these conversations or you keep trying to explain it to people and it, it breaks you down because I know how much energy and just emotion that it takes to talk about it over and over again. It really rips you apart that it's not just with you but with others, but I keep having this, these conversations with people who have either gone through it and are just, it's hurt them so much or they're in the middle of it and we have these conversations and I'm like, damn, if thousands of people could hear this right now, like I want to reproduce what we just said because people need to hear it. So us having this conversation and being able to capture it and hold onto it, it's, I think it's really important. So thank you for being brave enough to do it.[inaudible] It is truly an honor to serve you. Those of you who've left review or send an email to abby@upinflames.org I can't tell you how much that means to me. Thank you. For behind the scene info, backstories and content no one else is getting? Check out patreon.com/upinflamespodcast. Of course, you can check out AbbyBolt.com for all that and much more including several valuable resources you won't find anywhere else. Keep checking in because it will be growing and improving every day. Along with my other podcast, Her Brotherhood where we celebrate triumph over tragedy and women who put their lives on the line. Now I bet you know someone who would also appreciate this podcast. So go ahead, hit that share button, and let's do a good thing together. I hope you have a wonderful day and remember, choose the hard right over easy silence.

Speaker 2: 1:23:49

[inaudible].