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Transcript

Abby: 0:04

Hello there and thanks for taking time out of your busy day to listen to Up in Flames. I'm your host, but more importantly your advocate Abby Bolt. Now, this episode is going to be a little different, so stick with me. If you think this podcast is all about women and their issues in the workplace in society? You might be hearing the episodes. But you aren't listening and we men and women, all of us out here trying to make things better needs you to actually listen. I had a fire chief who I recently asked to give me feedback on the podcast told me he loved it but he felt it was focused on chicks and it wouldn't really be helpful for him. I was very appreciative as input. It helped me realize a few things. Clearly he wasn't listening to all the episodes. He probably caught one that talked about harassment and tuned out. It also makes me wonder if folks with similar opinions or why we aren't moving forward as smoothly as we should be. Some folks hear an inkling of a feminine issue and turn their heads. Last time I checked even if you aren't a woman, you're in some ways spending part of your life in tandem with one or more. Why wouldn't you want to be part of a culture shift? It takes a little intestinal fortitude to realize you could help things be better. It doesn't mean you aren't doing it right. It simply means you want to affect things in a meaningful way. I created Up in Flames as an effort to stoke a few fires and ignite moral courage in the workplace and beyond. The majority of my experience is as a firefighter for a federal agency. So while that's my base, this mission will go far beyond the federal workforce. We'll discuss challenges and solutions that apply not only in our professional cultures, but throughout our society as a whole. The Up in Flames' mission is no ordinary challenge. It's a culture shifting project powered by you. To keep Up in Flames going strong, hit the link at the top of AbbyBolt.com and become a patron. Up in Flames's patrons get special access to behind the scenes info, backstories, content no one else knows about. Not to mention early access to many episodes and to those of you have been so kind as to leave a review or even send me an email sharing your experience. You've proven to me that this is all worth it. I invite you in, anyone like you to reach out to me, email me anytime at AbbyatUpinFlames.org. And with that let's get to it. Okay, so here's the deal. This episode is about a Facebook group that I have that's all about wildfire women. And there was a, well there's a lot of conversations that happened on there that really strike my heart and many out there. They're so supportive and they've shown me exactly why I created it. It's now I have the Wildfire Women page, which is public and anyone can contribute things to that and it shares all kinds of public information to you know, help show the amazing women that are out there fighting wild land fire. But I also created a secret group that's really an invite only that way it keeps kind of a safe place for women in wild land to talk about certain things. I mean, yeah, we talk about having kids as a firefighter and you know, dealing with, with deaths and things that we just want to talk about, you know, as women in a group, just like we would out on a fire. The kind of things that you step up to a gal on the fire line and say like, Hey, I'm dealing with this. What do you think? So that's why we have that going. So there is a secret group and you know, if you're ever interested in that, by the way, send me an email at your wild landf irefighter have been one or I'm training to be one. Reach out and I would love to put you in connection with it. So anyway, a gal, I'm not going to share her name. I did reach out to her and ask her if I could share the post that she made because I mean it just happened, you know, this week. And I just felt like her vulnerability and her reaching out, I think it speaks to so many people and it's not just about a women in wild land fire. It's, it's really just a feeling of what the hell, why aren't we further better? What's stopping us as a culture? If it's already 2019, how are we not a little further in the time? So I'm just going to jump right to it. I'm going to share her post. I'm going to read it verbatim and keep out the things that actually identify her. And, um, I just want you to think, think about it. Just think about it deeply as I read through it and, and think about how it might affect you and your life, your profession, or the women in your life. You know, because like I said, this isn't just about girls. Okay. And none of this is, this is if you don't have a woman somewhere in your life, a daughter, a sister, a niece, a boss who's a woman, a coworker who's a woman. You know, I don't care who you are in this world. You have women in your life and so just listen to this and and see how it makes you feel. So she wrote,"I love fire so much, but I'm tired of fighting. It's like a total uphill battle. I don't mean to sound like I'm sorry for myself. I am just voicing a feeling I've actually been having lately. I feel like everything has been 10 times harder than it should be. I saw inexperienced males move up faster and I fought and still fight as a Squatty for the respect of my superiors. I look younger than I am and I've had to fight against that. It's just like when does it end and why is it still this way? As I read the big burn last year, it's school. I reflected, which she goes to college on the off season. I reflected on the response to females entering fire. I started in 2013 and even then I was the only girl on my crew for years. Reading that book, I realized we have hardly moved forward. As a fire culture, as foresters, why is it such taboo for women to be in the woods? It is always been, and I feel like nothing has changed. Even if after some years and getting my type one, which was such a battle, it still feels like we're sitting stagnant. Meaning the fire culture. We're not moving forward and we're not becoming better. Even in forestry as a whole, it is a fight to be accepted. And I still hear the jackass sexist comments every day, even during class and labs. This turned into a way longer posts than intended, but I feel exhausted of the fight. Why should it feel this way as a squad boss, I want the women on my team because they work hard. They're inspiring, and they run circles around the guys. But yet somehow this culture persists. I'm tired. I know I should keep fighting, but at what cost? I didn't know I could be a wild land firefighter until I was 18. I don't want girls to grow up not knowing all their options. Can you imagine the talent we are passing up with this train of thought? Well, anything ever change. I don't know. Just so many thoughts over the last two years and I'm hoping I'm not alone here. I didn't really expect anyone to comment on this link. I just wanted and needed to get it out there. You all rock and keep rocking hard. You inspire me." Well of course she just shared that thought she wanted to vent a little bit. And do you think that that was going to go silent? Do you think that all these kick ass women in this group, we're gonna let this girl feel these feelings? It's so many of them are or have felt in the past and say nothing. Oh I don't think so. So I'm gonna pick through them and just share some of them that aren't identifiable to folks. Because this, like I said, this is a private group and but I do want to give you guys a taste of the support that's out there. It also shows that this is not a bunch of crap. This is not stuff that one particular woman makes up or you know, maybe one is struggling. Maybe one is in a job that isn't really meant for her. Whether it's military or fire or law enforcement, one of those hard, you know, just hardworking, physically hardworking or emotional jobs. But maybe she is really made for it and maybe she's not getting a fair swing, but keep all that in mind. So as I'm going through, let's see, the first one that I see, it says,"I say if that is how you feel, I hear you in perhaps a change of crew is in order if possible. There are some amazing supportive programs out there. I've been blessed to be a part of. Some of them, each workplace has a different culture and vibe. Try a new place, get good info on at first and you may find yourself reinvigorated. Which is amazing because what she's saying, and I experienced this too, one of the crews I was on was trash. Like they, they did not have a good culture there. It was not a healthy place. And I thought maybe that's how it was everywhere in fire. But then I went to another crew and no, it was day and night. So it's really all in how it's managed and you might not be able to change the place you're in currently. So if you have the options, do venture out and find, find some other things." And she responded. The gal who posts the original, she said,"Thank you, that's great advice and it may really be the problem." Someone else said that she agrees with that possibly moving."I have worked in three different regions and the private timber industry before that in the last 20 years, each has had their good and bad. Find your niche and you will thrive. It does sound like a change. My do some good." Another woman commented,"I feel ya. Some days I get discouraged too. My advice is find your tribe. Find the other women that fight for you and find the men that fight for you. The others don't matter. And it's true. Every crew, engine, timber crew, et cetera, has a culture and a vibe. You just got to find the one that you jive with and keep fighting the good fight. Think of those girls you could help and change the world for." Ah, that's a good one. As someone else comment on her,"Girl, we hear you. I feel like some guys are in fire because they have the Peter Pan syndrome. They don't want to grow up. Thankfully, I worked with way more men that were supportive and let me be me. Sounds like you do need to find your tribe. Start letting your fire friends know that you're looking for a new gig. Assignments were always the best place to see crews and action and dysfunction. That way you'd get a sense of where was a good place to work. It's not fair, but don't look at it as running away. You're moving up." Another fire gal said,"I've been doing this for almost 20 years. Sadly, it never gets easier, less frustrating. I've always been perceived younger than I am. I'm short. And at first impression, I seem timid. I hate to see it, but I think it will always be an uphill battle. Nevertheless, she persisted. Chin up, girl, you got this. Not delicate like a flower. Delicate, like a bomb." Another one of the wild-land gal said,"I'm sorry you feel so alone, but[ inaudible] you're just beginning. This is a long road. I hope you find your tribe that can empower you. I'm sorry to say it, but it really doesn't get any easier. Been there. Got the tee shirt."' And another gal said,"Hang in there, sister. As a good old boy club dies off and stops projecting on a new generations, there will need to be women like you to lead the way. Focus on leadership skills and the proper training and documentation and move up the ladder. Some leaders are made by their peers as they learn what you're capable of. The respect will follow. I have brothers, I have brothers, so trust me. Every sexist comment gets an equally demoralizing comment." Maybe look up a few, so she's saying, find a little fire with fire. Another supportive wildfire woman said,"I'm sorry you feel so defeated so early for me, this is not a sprint. This is an ultra marathon and we're at mile five. I take every chance I can to plant seeds of change. There are far more women than there were when I started in the 90s. Celebrating small victories to provide fuel for the long distance. I make sure I attend public events even though I have a strong preference for introversion and crowds exhaust me. And I make sure I proclaim to everyone who shows the slightest entrance that I am a firefighter. I love watching little ones eyes light up and when you say you are a firefighter, seed planted girlfriend. I do the same every time I tow up with another chief and a chief meeting with cooperators. And they try to talk around me to my utmost. Stand tall, chin high and proud. Because even going to the grocery store in your Nomex, people watch and note. Another seed planted. Only at home or with my tribe......do I rail in frustration or need a chance to slump over. Next day back, I'm all business. The other day I had a teeny reckoned turn. Girl I'm telling you I could probably bench her, come and tell me she's working on working on online classes and she wants to be a firefighter. I was busy as hell, but I dropped everything and took 20 minutes to go to pep talk her about my first hero in fire. A smoke jumper named Robin. Who's pack weighed twice as much as her and she kicked all everyone's butt hiking and fighting fire. We will get there. You will get us there by planting seeds. Hug sister. You got this. One more chain." And other gal said,"I'd take the little moments from the women you see in fire and cherish them. Know that the women you see as ground pounders now, may someday be the FMO, the national office lead for innovative programs, the mentors for others coming after her. The women currently in higher level positions worked damn hard to get there. In order to be successful, you have to be willing to work harder than others. Whether you're male or female, celebrate success. When you need to vent. Find a safe place to do it. Give your coworkers every reason to trust you. You will build wonderful longterm relationships on short acquaintance that will bolster your bolster your confidence. Chin up and good luck." Another gal said,"I encourage you to communicate with your supervisors or even your indirect supervisors who have received the fire program. People who will listen to you. It's important for them to hear and understand because oftentimes crew behavior and mentality trickled down from the top. And if they can make changes and set better examples at their level, then it will encourage positive change for the whole program. From the managers all the way down to the crew members." Another gal said,"I remember that feeling. Just had my 60th birthday and have great memories of being in fire. I may get blasted for this, but my advice is not make fire your whole world. Enjoy all the many sides of your life. I felt so long that I was fighting an uphill battle. I hope things change for the better for women in fire." Another gal on fire to support her said,"I feel you and it makes my heart hurt a little. I've moved from the fire line through the ranks and onto line officer job. And sometimes I still roll my eyes as a unit leader. I can see places for improvement and still can't always make them happen. As a leader, I'm often told them to direct. And throughout my career have had to be to have the same influence. I totally support the part about finding your own tribe through working together friendships and supporting each other. Many of the women on this page are part of my tribe. You know who you are. It's hard to change culture, but I do see change. Not as fast as I want, but changed on the less. I'm glad you reached out. Makes me glad I'm on this group." The original gal who posted this replied to that and said,"I've heard heard that about being too direct too. I got into it one time with a crew boss because he kept calling me out that I didn't sound like I was smiling or happy enough over the radio. After hearing it about 10 times I lost it. I told him I'm hiking, hose up a mountain. Should I sound like rainbows and cherries? Or can I just get the job done? Just because I should sound intense doesn't mean I'm angry or the job is intense and I find it crazy on men. Talk to women like that out there. Expecting them to sound pretty. Like we still have to fit that mold of who they think we should be out there. The many times I've seen and heard men sound miserable over the radio and not once have I heard one being called out that they shouldn't sound or they didn't sound smiley enough. Thank you for the kind words." The next comment of some support went on."I've been with the federal government for 26 years. I recently did 120 day detail where the leaders were both women. I came up through the ranks in fire. Law enforcement and wildlife biologists. All male dominated careers. I was told during performance evaluations that carrying a gun is not very feminine and went through extremely stressful sexual harassment cases. Trust me, I've had my bad days when I felt like you, but I kept pursuing my job and my career and my dreams. I love my job and I love this agency. The only way we can change it is to stay engaged and keep fighting for yourself. A culture doesn't change overnight. Hang in there." The next supporter said,"I love the wildfire women page because of this. Support from your sisters when you're feeling overwhelmed. I agree with you so I agree with so much that's been said. There aren't enough of us. It never gets easier, but for me, at least after awhile they all learned not to mess with me. You shouldn't have to be twice as good as them to be treated as an equal, but there it is. After 32 years in fire, fighting some version of this the whole time. The best advice I ever got is this. Their opinion of you is none of your business. Your opinion of you matters the most. Your boss needs to see what you do and what you are capable of. Anyone else, whatever. I feel the support coming from all these caring strangers and friends here. If we pulled together, there's no stopping us." Another amazing wildfire women supporter said,"Please hang in there. We need you. The girls who don't yet know they can do this. Awesome but challenging job needs you. Your crew mates, he needs you. I need you. I've been there too, but I'm glad I stuck it out. Even when I myself was so very tired. I'm still tired. I'm still having to fight and prove even at my age in my 29th year. But I'm doing my best to fight for you and the other bad-ass chicks who want to do this job. It's okay to be tired. I'm just down the road from you and we have a very supportive firework environment here. I would love for you to come work with us. Jobs are open now." Another wildfire woman said,"It's so easy to look back 50 years and see how far we've come in so many ways. Women in male dominated fields in general and yet so hard to appreciate what we're doing right here and now. Inch by inch, day by day, year after year. And it feels like it's so slow. It's so hard, even depressing at times, but I still feel very strongly that whatever failures we feel, whatever acceptance, we don't feel that it's still helping girls 20 to 30 years from now. Some days I'm optimistic like today. Some days I feel ground down like earlier this week, hang in there. I appreciate your words and I appreciate your sharing today's reality." My comment on her post was,"Don't stop. We need women like you and the ones reading this, not comfortable sharing their pain and confusion. Pissed off and pushing through the BS, putting their boots firmly on the ground. We are causing a shift. It's like an iceberg slowly changing its path, but dammit, it's moving. Thank you for being vulnerable." The next gal said,"Change things. Teach young girls, young women that they can be firefighters or any other profession they want to be. I taught my daughters in sense that they could be anything they wanted to be and they are. I will also teach my two granddaughters the same thing. I am so sorry you're tired. I understand, but I hope you have a little more fight to help the next generation to be anything they want to be." The next supportive comment was,"I started my career in the 70s it was hard. I get it. Changing a culture takes generations. My generation opened the door. Now walk through and keep opening doors for the next generation. I retired as division soup ICT 3 resource unit leader on a type 2 team. And I couldn't get past AFMO because I didn't have a degree. Get your degree first and foremost, then find a really good mentor." And that's just all the supportive comments that have come in like the last 24 hours. What a great group of women holding each other up. And the thing is is that we don't just need the women holding up women. We need them to be held up by men too. We need males to be our mentors because if we're all gonns work together, we all need to teach each other and support each other. Now last time I checked that the dudes weren't just supported by the dudes, right? Guys out there on the job are also being supported by women. So while I did just share with you an amazing set of support being shared with a wildfire woman and a secret, gosh thing social media group. I mean look at all these little places where we can help each other or we can make things a little bit better where we can have some moral courage and cause a shift. Now my challenge to you and just my internal question for you, is what are you doing in your environment? Whether you're in fire, whether you work in some corporation somewhere or wherever it is. What are you doing for your work environment, for the people around you to support them, to encourage them, to mentor them? Are you looking for mentors? Who is your mentor? I just want you to have some of these internal thoughts. Think about what it is that you're doing to make it better. And remember, Nope, this mission is not just about chicks, not a bunch, but about a bunch of girls. I, yeah, I did just share with you something about a bunch of awesome wildfire women. But because we need a little transparency to see what it is, these gals are talking about, what they're being challenged with and how everyone can help each other. How this is for the guys out there too. This is to open some eyes, open some communication, and help us all be better for each other. Now at that. Go forward, lead with fire, F. I. R. E. fearlessness, integrity, resilience, and empathy. And don't forget to choose the hard right over easy silence. Uh, do me a huge favor. Go and leave a review for this. Share it with anybody that you think might find this episode or this whole podcast helpful. Help me bring change. Have a great day.

Speaker 2: 20:21

[inaudible].